With a joking undertone, I wrote earlier that had John written the book of Revelation as a graduate school work in today’s world, he would score an “F” for plagiarism – failure to cite his sources. I was not exaggerating. In Part 1, I demonstrated how John uses the finest textual details to make theological points. In Part 2, we considered the human and angelic identity arguments of the angels of the seven churches in Revelation. Something similar is going on with our present subject of the identity of the twenty-four elders. Are they human or divine beings? As it turns out, John provides enough data to argue both ways. John uses many different Hebrew Bible imagery, allusion, and ideas in describing the elders in Revelation.
I recently had a Facebook discussion with a Catholic priest, Chinaka Justin Mbaeri, on this subject. He uses his page to educate readers on the heritage and doctrines of the Catholic Church while also correcting what he believes are dangerous ideas to the faith. In one such post, the priest argues at a considerable length in defence of the Catholic Church’s uses of images and statues in its affairs. He argued that Protestants of Nigerian extractions are ill-informed about the practice and so condemn what they know not. He pointed out that Catholics do not worship images or statues but use them as visual aids to teach members of the faithful exploits of saints. He vigorously defends these uses, pointing out that the Bible doesn’t condemn the use of images per se but strongly prohibits worshiping images – and I think he is right. He then says that when Catholics seek the prayer of saints, they are under no delusion that the saints (or their statues) have any power to grant prayers. On the contrary, the idea is to enlist the saints, who are already perfected and in God’s presence, to pray alongside the earthly faithful. He relies on Revelation 5:8 and 8:3-4 as the critical passages for the practice, which is where I disagree. Let me quote these verses below for easy reference before sharing the unedited exchanges:
Revelation 5:8 ESV
[8] And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
Revelation 8:3-4 ESV
[3] And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne, [4] and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel.
As you read, pay attention to the various biblical allusions, Old Testament passages, and ideas that are invoked by John – all without a single citation. This attribute of Revelation is one reason it is one of the most challenging books in the Bible. Following then are the exchanges that I had with the capable priest over a few days:
Me:
I agree that much has been made out of “images” and “worship” by Naija Christians that are not warranted. I think the defence marahalled here is mostly fair. Nevertheless, I have some points on which to respectfully push back.
1. Considering that the accuracy of the statues in depicting the historical figures is arguably low, why not honor their memory by way of teaching without images?
2. Most importantly, I do not think your uses of Rev 5:8 and 8:3-4 in your defence are legitimate. I see no indication that “saints” refers to believers who are with Christ in heaven. This seems to be the load-bearing part of the argument. If it can be established that these are transitioned human believers, then it will help your case. It seems more likely to me that these are believers yet alive on the Earth. The only time Revelation explicitly tells about dead saints in heaven in 6:9-10, these souls aren’t praying for anyone; in fact, they sought vengeance and justice. So, I think “the faithful” and “saints” in your sentence have the same referents.
3. It would seem like the practice of enlisting the help of transitioned saints in prayers admits of a potency ranking of prayers: transitioned faithful believers’ prayers are inherently more potent than what one might get by asking living believing sisters and brothers to pray. That needs to be exegetically and theologically established. It seems to be opposed to what the Gospel teaches on prayers.
Ultimately, this is not a matter that is particularly concerning for me. It’s neither here nor there. But I do think it can be a slippery slope. Born and raised in the Celestial Church, I should know. Yes, a trained exegete like you may accurately sort things as intended. But the chances of an untrained person thinking more highly of the statues than is appropriate is high.
Grace to us all.
Priest:
First, while I understand the desire for accuracy, the use of statues and icons in Catholic practice is not dependent on an exact physical representation. These images are not portraits but symbols meant to honour the spiritual life and virtues of the person depicted. Much like symbols on a national flag, statues represent more than physical likeness; they capture spiritual truths and characteristics that draw the faithful to contemplation and inspire devotion. The Church uses these images as visual aids in teaching about holy lives, focusing believers’ minds on virtues to emulate, not as objects of worship. The absence of exact likeness does not lessen their value as tools to direct believers toward God. Without these symbols, the powerful effect that visual reminders bring – particularly in cultures and traditions that value both spoken and unspoken forms of reverence – could be lost.
On Revelation 5:8 and 8:3-4, you argue that “saints” might refer to living believers rather than those in heaven. But let’s consider this carefully. Revelation 5:8 describes the twenty-four elders in heaven, each holding “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” This is a scene in heaven, with heavenly beings offering up the prayers of saints to God. The term “saints” throughout Scripture generally refers to believers, and here, it includes those united in Christ both on earth and in heaven. There’s no suggestion that these “saints” are only those on earth. The elders in heaven are already in God’s presence, interceding and participating in the divine worship, which strengthens the Catholic understanding of the Communion of Saints – the unity of believers across time and space in prayer and praise.
You reference Revelation 6:9-10, where the martyrs under the altar cry out for justice rather than intercede for others. This passage actually illustrates that those in heaven are indeed alive and conscious of earthly events. The martyrs’ cry is not a denial of intercessory prayer but an example of their awareness of and response to the ongoing struggle against evil. It underscores their active role in heaven. Moreover, Hebrews 12:1 speaks of the “great cloud of witnesses” that surrounds us, suggesting a profound awareness and connection. These are not inactive souls but witnesses to our journey who intercede on our behalf, as tradition affirms. The imagery in Revelation reflects the heavenly liturgy, showing that those in heaven are participants in the worship of God and the presentation of our prayers.
Your third concern touches on whether prayers from the saints in heaven are seen as inherently more potent. To clarify, Catholic teaching doesn’t imply a hierarchical “ranking” of prayer potency. Instead, it recognizes that those who have died in Christ and are united with Him in heaven are closer to God in a profound way, fully perfected and living in His presence. James 5:16 reminds us that “the prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective,” and who could be more righteous than those who have been fully sanctified in heaven? Their prayers are effective not because they “rank” above our prayers on earth but because they are part of the eternal worship and intercession that takes place in heaven, in union with Christ, the one true Mediator. When Catholics ask for the prayers of saints, it is understood as part of the mutual support of the Body of Christ, not a diminishment of our prayers or the prayers of our fellow Christians here on earth.
Lastly, I appreciate your point regarding the potential for misunderstanding among untrained individuals. You raise a valid concern: reverence could become excessive if not properly taught. This is why the Church teaches clear catechesis on the distinction between veneration (dulia) and worship (latria), with the latter reserved for God alone. Catholic teaching stresses that images are tools, not objects of worship. Just as in the Celestial Church, where devotions can sometimes risk misunderstanding, the Catholic Church continually educates its members to avoid such pitfalls. Proper understanding and guidance are key, and Catholics are regularly reminded that all reverence directed toward Mary and the saints ultimately points to Christ.
Shalom!
Me:
Beautiful.
No, I didn’t intend to imply that the souls in heaven are inactive; I apologize about that. The reason I referenced Rev 6:9-10 is to point out that the unambiguous example of transitioned human souls in heaven in Revelation does not portray the souls as praying or interceding for anyone.
My objection yet remains even with your most recent reply – the problem is merely shifted. You seem to assume that the 24-elders are human – but you are yet to exegetically establish the claim. I don’t think they are. But even if they are, the text doesn’t say the elders prayed or interceded.
Also, no, “saints” does not only refer to human believers (in heaven and on earth). “Hagioi” is a term that, in the LXX, refers to divine sons of God. The idea, often obliterated in the English translation choice of “saints,” that the New Testament communicates by the term is that humans are to be included in that category along with the other (divine) sons in God’s council.
So, given that evidence of the Septuagintal use, we may not assume that “saints” here are humans. Again, I see how it helps your argument for them to be, but you have to exegetically argue for it.
I think the “prayers” of the saints here refer to the prayers saints on Earth offer up to God. The text doesn’t say the 24 elders prayed – only that they have collected the prayers of saints. Neither does Revelation anywhere else suggest that transitioned humans prayed about the affairs of the Earth – besides the Rev 6:9 case.
The clear teaching of Jesus and the Apostles is for saints on earth to pray for one another. When James admonished his audience about prayer, he told them to pray one for another, adding that the prayers of the righteous is effective. And what example did he reference to make his point? He referenced Elijah! Interestingly, since many Jews believed that Elijah went to heaven without dying, James could have used the opportunity to tell his audience that Elijah was interceding from heaven. But, he didn’t. He restricted his example to the earthly example Elijah modelled.
Priest:
Mind Phillip, I appreciate your response!
First, let’s address the 24 elders in Revelation. You’re correct that I argued the elders likely represent redeemed human believers, but I understand your hesitation to accept this without exegetical backing. The 24 elders are seen throughout Revelation in a heavenly, worshiping role. This pattern strongly suggests a human, redeemed element in their identity. When we turn to Revelation 4:4, the elders are depicted as seated around the throne, clothed in white garments and wearing gold crowns. In early Christian and biblical imagery, these details are significant. White robes symbolize purity or redemption (Revelation 7:9, 14), and crowns (stephanoi) often denote victory or reward for the faithful (James 1:12; 2 Timothy 4:8; 1 Peter 5:4). The combination of these symbols tallies more closely with redeemed humans than with angelic beings, who are never depicted in Revelation as wearing crowns.
The elders’ role in presenting the prayers of the saints to God (Revelation 5:8) further supports this view. The text describes them holding “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” The Greek word here for saints is ἅγιοι (hagioi), used in the New Testament primarily to refer to believers, both on earth and in heaven (Romans 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:2). In the Septuagint (LXX), as you rightly noted, hagioi can refer to God’s divine council or angelic beings, but in the New Testament, its usage overwhelmingly points to the faithful followers of Christ. Given that John’s language in Revelation is steeped in New Testament Christian terminology, it’s reasonable to conclude that hagioi here refers to human believers.
You suggested that the 24 elders aren’t interceding because the text only mentions them presenting the prayers, not actually praying. However, this act of presenting prayers itself signifies intercession. The image here is rooted in the Temple priesthood: in ancient Israel, priests would present incense as an offering, symbolizing the prayers of the people ascending to God (Psalm 141:2; Luke 1:10). The elders, by presenting these prayers to God, are performing an intercessory role. In this sense, they are participating in the heavenly liturgy by bringing forth the prayers of the faithful, which aligns with the Catholic understanding of intercession within the Communion of Saints.
On Revelation 6:9-10, you noted that the martyrs under the altar are not interceding for others but rather asking for justice. True, they are praying for justice, but this shows that the souls of the righteous in heaven are aware of earthly events and can petition God about them. The Catholic understanding of intercession includes such an awareness and connection between the faithful in heaven and those on earth. This passage doesn’t imply that the martyrs’ role is limited only to personal justice. It merely illustrates that they are actively participating in prayer within heaven, indicating they are not isolated from the concerns of the Church on earth.
Your point about James 5:16 and the example of Elijah is an interesting one, but let’s consider why James references Elijah. In the context of James’ message, Elijah’s example is used to demonstrate the power of prayer offered in faith and righteousness. James uses Elijah as a model for his audience, stating that they, too, can pray powerfully. However, this doesn’t exclude the idea that saints in heaven can pray as well. In fact, Hebrews 12:1 speaks of the “great cloud of witnesses” surrounding us. The term witnesses (from the Greek μάρτυρες, martyres) is an imagery of one who testifies for another, and this suggests they are not merely observing passively but are spiritually engaged with us. The early Church understood these witnesses as those who, now perfected in faith, continue to participate actively in God’s work, including prayer and intercession.
Lastly, on the idea that Catholic teaching implies a potency hierarchy among prayers, this isn’t entirely accurate. The intercession of saints in heaven is valued not because it “outranks” the prayers of believers on earth but because those in heaven are perfected in Christ. Catholic theology holds that all prayers are heard by God, but the prayers of the saints in heaven are made from a state of perfected righteousness. James 5:16 states that “the prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.” Saints in heaven, fully sanctified and united with God, would naturally intercede from a position of greater union with God. This does not replace or diminish the prayers of believers on earth; rather, it reflects the communion of the entire Church – earthly and heavenly, joined together in Christ.
So, the 24 elders are best understood as human, redeemed saints in heaven, symbolically fulfilling a ‘priestly role’ in presenting prayers to God. The saints’ intercession is a Scriptural and ancient Christian belief, rooted in the understanding that those perfected in heaven continue to care for and pray for the Church on earth. Far from diminishing Christ’s unique mediation, this participation only highlights the fullness of the body of Christ, where those united with Christ continue to support their brothers and sisters in faith.
Shalom!
Me:
Excellent, brother.
I shall limit my response to the parts of your reply that are critical.
I think your defence on the 24 elders is sensible, but I don’t think it is decisive. The points you made about the symbolism of the white garments and crowns are well-grounded, though I take a little exception to the claim that Revelation never portrays angelic beings as wearing a crown. I take it that you would read 12:1 as referring to Jesus (or some other human entity), but I read that verse as referring to an angel. Nevertheless, I grant your claim for the sake of argument.
I do not deny that the elders (and all of heaven, in fact) participate in the ongoing heavenly worship. I do not deny that they offered prayers to God. My claim is that the prayers they offer up to God are the prayers of human saints on earth. In other words, I see a picture in Revelation that portrays the divine and human sons (i.e children) of God already working collaboratively as one unit as God would have it. It may be that your view of the elders being humans is correct. But it is not a matter we can decisively settle based on available data. Hence, I wouldn’t create a doctrine based on that.
The passage reads awkwardly, if we take the elders to be humans. Here is the verse:
Revelation 5:8 ESV
[8] And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
First, if we argue that the elders are humans, we would have to also say the four living creatures are humans since both groups of beings are described similarly here – both having harps and golden bowls of incense.
Second, it would be more natural for the text to say, “each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense WHICH is THEIR prayers” (or something of that sort), if the intent was to suggest that the elders (and the four living creatures) did the praying – an observation that is very important for your argument. But instead, the adjectival phrase “which are the prayers of the saints” seems to suggest that the “saints” in view are not the elders (and the four living creatures). In fact, the very next verse unequivocally ascribes an action to the elders (and the four living creatures) saying “and they sang a new song.”
I think you may be underappreciating John’s use of “hagioi” in Revelation. I say that because of your comment: “Given that John’s language in Revelation is steeped in New Testament Christian terminology, it’s reasonable to conclude that hagioi here refers to human believers.”
No, John’s language in Revelation is steeped in the OLD TESTAMENT. In fact, no other book of the New Testament is as rich in Hebrew Bible allusion and imageries. Revelation 4 and 5, for instance, as I argued in a blog entry (see links below), is essentially a repurposing of familiar Old Testament ideas and images from Daniel and Ezekiel, among others, but with subtle theological twists in light of the Jesus event. I think by using hagioi, John sutbly invites us to reimagine God’s divine council. That council, which used to consist of only God’s divine sons, is now being reconstituted to include God’s other sons. By the way, I think that is what the “cloud of witnesses” refers to – but that’s another story.
So, again, I don’t think the 24 elders are humans. I grant that they participate in the worship. I also grant that they offer up the prayers of saints in a priestly manner before God. But I don’t think the prayers they offer up are their own. Neither does it have to be. To repeat what I already said, given that the evidence is not sufficient to nail it one way or the other, I would not encourage making a doctrine out of it.
Grace to us all.
Priest:
Firstly, on Revelation 5:8 and the identity of the 24 elders versus the four living creatures, it’s essential to note that John’s language here, while symbolic, follows distinct categories in his depiction of heavenly beings. The four living creatures (often taken as cherubic figures liken to those in Ezekiel’s vision) consistently serve in a different function than the elders. They are portrayed as guardians of the throne who are constantly offering praise, whereas the 24 elders are depicted as enthroned, wearing crowns and white garments, specific markers of victory and purity typically associated with redeemed believers in Revelation (Revelation 3:5, 18). And since angels are not depicted with crowns elsewhere in the book, this makes the crowned elders an exception that leans toward a human identification rather than angelic.
While the text may not explicitly state “their prayers,” this is also consistent with the Temple imagery John employs. In ancient Israel, the priests presented incense offerings on behalf of the people, symbolizing their intercessory role without making the prayers themselves. The elders are holding these golden bowls of incense in a priestly manner, suggesting they are performing an intercessory function on behalf of the faithful, just as a high priest does. This aligns well with the Communion of Saints concept, where those in heaven are united with believers on earth in offering prayers to God. This interpretation is strengthened by Hebrews 12:1, which, while not explicitly referenced here, speaks of a “cloud of witnesses” surrounding and supporting us, language implying active participation, rather than distant observation.
On the use of hagioi (saints) and your argument about Old Testament imagery in Revelation, you are right that Revelation is steeped in Old Testament language and imagery. However, John does not slavishly apply Old Testament terms without transformation. The New Testament takes the concept of holy ones (hagioi) and applies it predominantly to Christ’s followers, human believers sanctified by His sacrifice. Thus, when John repurposes Old Testament imagery in Revelation, he often does so with the intention of reflecting the realities fulfilled in Christ, not merely reiterating past imagery. The term hagioi (used to refer to the saints) takes on a more personal and relational dimension in the New Testament, where it is overwhelmingly applied to human believers. This shift is vital in understanding John’s choice of terms here.
In the context of Revelation 5:8, it’s also worth noting that the 24 elders and the four living creatures perform separate functions, despite some similarities in their description. This distinction is clearer when observing their actions; for instance, in Revelation 5:10, the elders are said to sing a “new song” that celebrates their redemptive experience: “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they will reign upon the earth.” This language of redemption and future reign is highly suggestive of human participation, as angels do not experience redemption in the same manner.
Further, when you argue that doctrine should not be based on insufficient evidence, I must clarify that the intercessory role of the saints is supported by far more than this single passage in Revelation. The Catholic understanding of the Communion of Saints is rooted in the entirety of Scripture, which shows a consistent pattern of intercession among the righteous. From the prayers of Abraham and Moses on behalf of others to the New Testament exhortations to pray for one another (1 Timothy 2:1-4), there is a rich biblical foundation for the idea that those close to God can intercede on behalf of others. Revelation 5:8 and 8:3-4 support this, showing heavenly beings (whether human or angelic) presenting the prayers of the saints to God, which reveals the biblical principle of intercession as a cooperative action in the heavenly realm.
On the point regarding James 5:16 and Elijah, it’s important to recognize that James uses Elijah as an example of powerful earthly intercession precisely because his readers are themselves still on earth and thus able to emulate him directly. However, this does not imply that those in heaven cease to care or intercede for believers on earth. In fact, 2 Maccabees 15:12-16 (an intertestamental text accepted in the Catholic canon) depicts the deceased high priest Onias and the prophet Jeremiah praying for the Jewish people, demonstrating a clear belief in the intercession of the righteous dead on behalf of the living, a belief that was not condemned by Jesus or the Apostles.
Lastly, you mention the risk of creating doctrine based on passages that may seem inconclusive. The doctrine of the Communion of Saints and the role of the saints’ intercession is not based solely on Revelation but is a consistent theme throughout Scripture and the early Church’s practice. Early Christian writings, such as those by St. Cyprian and St. Augustine, reflect a well-established belief that the faithful departed continue to intercede for the Church on earth. This belief was universal in early Christianity and has been upheld for centuries as a fundamental aspect of the Church’s understanding of unity among all members of Christ’s body.
Me:
Excellent, once again.
Sir, as I already said a few times, I don’t think there is enough data here to settle this matter. Indeed, if there were a single text in the Protestant Canon as clear as the 2 Maccabees text you cited, the case would be closed already. I’ll again only focus on the portions of your reply that I think are crucial (to keep the exchange more manageable).
Once again, I do not deny that the 24 elders functioned in a priestly way. The only reason I brought up the four living creatures is because the text lump them together with the 24 elders in saying, “the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (5:8). So, it was not only the 24 elders that offered up prayers. The living creatures did too. (The language also lumps the 24 elders and the living creatures together in verse 9 when “they sang a new song.” More on that shortly) Notice that in Revelation 8:3-4, it was an ANGEL (not a human) who offers up prayers of the saints:
[3] And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne, [4] and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel.
Of course, it’s possible that humans and angels take turns offering up prayers in a priestly fashion in heaven before God. But given that the human interpretation is being questioned, and we have the clarity of angelic offering of prayers with incense, the “angelic” (or divine) interpretation of 5:8 is favored.
You are surely correct in saying that John does not slavishly reuse the Old Testament (OT), and I said that much in my original comment. John repurposes OT ideas in light of the Jesus event – incarnation, ministry, death, burial, resurrection, ascension. Notice, however, that John’s use of “hagioi” for human believers in Christ does NOT imply that the hagioi of the LXX ontologically stopped being so. Instead, the idea John communicates is that human hagioi are now joined to divine hagioi in a new family.
Let me revisit the song of 5:9-10:
Revelation 5:9-10 ESV
[9] And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, [10] and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.”
If the elders are (redeemed) humans, then they sound rather distant in this song. The song sounds like a celebration of others, excluding themselves. It would be more natural for them to sing, “you ransomed US and all people for God” and “you have made US a kingdom and priests to our God” and “WE shall reign on the earth” (or equivalents of these lines). It sounds more appropriate for divine beings (or “angels”), who not experience redemption as a result of Jesus’ salvific work, to sing such a distant song in celebration of the new hagioi.
Let me say something about your use of the 2 Maccabees text. Jesus and the Apostles did not condemn the idea because they didn’t get the opportunity to address it. They, of course, also didn’t cite 2 Maccabees. So, 2 Maccabees can’t help us here. But it does show that some Jews believed that deceased ancestors may pray for their earthly relatives.
Despite the fact that a plausible “angelic” identification of the elders can be marshalled, I nevertheless grant that the evidence is not decisive.
Grace, brother.
Priest:
Mind Phillip, your emphasis on the four living creatures and the 24 elders as distinct entities but participating together in worship and intercession is true. However, we must consider the differences in roles and symbolism of these two groups. The four living creatures (from the Greek ζῷα, zōa) are reminiscent of the cherubic beings seen in Ezekiel’s vision (Ezekiel 1:5-10), often associated with guardianship and worship. They accompany the elders but serve in a distinct role, consistently seen as protectors and proclaimers of God’s holiness.
The 24 elders, by contrast, are seated on thrones, wear white robes, and have gold crowns. This symbolism strongly suggests human figures with victorious status (Revelation 4:4). The crowns (Greek: στέφανοι, stephanoi) they wear are victory crowns, which are consistently associated with redeemed believers in New Testament imagery (e.g., 2 Timothy 4:8, 1 Peter 5:4) – the crown of unfading glory. Nowhere in the New Testament are angels depicted as receiving such crowns. This distinction in attire and setting supports the interpretation that the elders are redeemed human figures, symbolic of the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles, representing the fullness of God’s people.
Now, on Revelation 8:3-4 and the role of an angel offering the prayers of the saints, your point is well-taken. However, it’s pertinent to recognize that angelic intercession does not negate human intercession in heaven. The presentation of prayers by angels here does not imply exclusivity in intercession, as both angelic and human intercession are biblical. For example, in Tobit 12:15, Raphael presents prayers, yet this angelic offering does not prevent saints from doing likewise in the heavenly realm. Also, as the 24 elders participate with the four living creatures in offering incense (symbolizing prayers) in Revelation 5:8, the act strongly implies a priestly role more related with human intercession, as it evokes the earthly priestly duty of presenting prayers on behalf of the faithful (Psalm 141:2). Angels can certainly offer prayers (after all, they are in heaven), but the unique description of the elders sets them apart as distinct, human figures, involved in the intercessory life of heaven.
On the phrasing in Revelation 5:9-10, where you argue the elders sing a “distant” song (“you ransomed people for God” rather than “you ransomed us”), it’s pertinent to recognize the corporate language of worship. Throughout Revelation, John presents heavenly hymns as corporate declarations, often with universal language that includes all participants (Revelation 7:9-10). The phrase “you have made them a kingdom and priests” tallies with Old Testament prophecy (Exodus 19:6), yet is celebrated by the elders because it includes all believers. The doxology does not exclude the elders but stresses the universal redemption Christ has accomplished, which encompasses them as well. This is consistent with Revelation 5:10, where the redeemed are depicted as a kingdom and priests who shall reign on the earth – identifying with both the heavenly and earthly Church.
Moreover, Revelation 4-5 is heavily infused with liturgical imagery, reflecting the structure of heavenly worship. The 24 elders and their actions parallel the activities of Old Testament priests, who offered sacrifices and incense on behalf of the people. Just as earthly priests presented the people’s offerings in the Temple, so do the 24 elders present the prayers of the saints. The elders’ worship and intercession are entirely consistent with human roles in worship, a position recognized throughout early Christian writings. Church Fathers like St. Irenaeus and Hippolytus understood these elders as representing the Church triumphant, illustrating the human nature of these participants in the heavenly liturgy.
On the usage of 2 Maccabees 15:12-16, while I understand your reluctance due to its absence from the Protestant canon (and the further reluctance you’d give to my earlier use of Tobit in this response), this passage nonetheless provides a strong perception into Second Temple Jewish beliefs about the intercession of the righteous dead. This belief was neither condemned by Christ nor dismissed by the apostles, who came from this Jewish tradition. Jewish understanding in this period did not view intercessory prayer by the righteous dead as idolatrous or inappropriate; rather, it was seen as an extension of their communion with God. This continuity in early Christian tradition is supported by early Church writings, such as those of Origen and Tertullian, who viewed intercession by those in heaven as both natural and effective.
Finally, your emphasis on the Old Testament context and divine council imagery in Revelation is good but should not obscure John’s use of New Testament theological developments. John does indeed draw from the Old Testament, but he reinterprets and reimagines these symbols in light of the Incarnation and redemptive work of Christ. Thus, while the term “hagioi” (holy ones) in the Old Testament sometimes referred to divine beings, John’s predominant usage of hagioi in Revelation follows the New Testament application to human believers – those sanctified in Christ. This recontextualization tallies with John’s intent to stress the unity of God’s people across heaven and earth.
Me:
Beautiful again.
I shall rest my case here, brother. I very much respect your scholarly handling of the text and issues. But I don’t think we are moving the case forward at this point. I understand that it is a Catholic doctrine and that you, as a priest, may feel obligated to defend it. Nevertheless, I don’t think the data is conclusive.
You have ably argued for the human identification side, and you raised many important points. I believe I have not done terribly badly in marhalling arguments for the angelic identification side. So, for me, it is inconclusive.
However, let me briefly address the new data you introduced. I’m familiar with the 12 Israel sons plus 12 Apostles explanation of the 24 elders. It’s quite plausible, but not decisive, especially as we have no other biblical witness of such a derivation of 24. It is also nontrivially interesting that John, who wrote Revelation, was still alive on the earth AND was witnessing the proceedings of the divine council in the vision (Revelation 4:1,2). Notice that John continues to witness the court’s proceedings until Revelation 20. So, it is a bit incongruous that he should be one of the 12 Apostles symbolized by the 24 elders while also observing the 24 elders from “outside.”
It just reads better to my small mind to take the 24 elders as divine beings. Perhaps, it is no surprise that they are described in terms and imageries otherwise used for humans because of John’s use of hagioi. John has blended data points and beings together – and created a perpetual source of headaches for some of us who read him!
If it looks like I avoided commenting on the testimonies of the church fathers, it’s by design. Their testimonies are important, very important, but secondary to the text.
In the near future, I may come across data that will tilt the argument in the direction you defended. I have no shame about changing my mind on doctrines.
Priest:
It’s true, as you noted, that John is present in the vision while seemingly symbolized among the elders. This is a valid question, but it’s important to remember that Revelation is not bound by temporal or spatial limitations. As a prophetic vision, Revelation often operates in a symbolic or typological framework, allowing John to observe the elders while also being represented by them. This duality doesn’t undermine the interpretation of the elders as human; it actually captures the timelessness of the heavenly scene, which exists beyond earthly constraints. John’s presence as both participant and observer illustrates other prophetic visions, such as Isaiah and Ezekiel, where the prophet is both witnessing events and symbolically representing aspects of God’s people.
Again, on the question of angels versus redeemed humans offering prayers in heaven. While Revelation 8:3-4 does depict an angel presenting the prayers of the saints, this doesn’t preclude the elders’ priestly role in offering incense (Revelation 5:8). Throughout Scripture, intercession is a role ascribed primarily to human representatives, particularly priests. The symbolism of incense in both the Old Testament and New Testament is tied to priestly intercession (Psalm 141:2; Luke 1:9-10). The fact that the elders are holding golden bowls full of incense signifies their priestly role in the heavenly sanctuary, akin to how priests on earth would offer prayers on behalf of others.
Finally, St. Irenaeus, St. Augustine, and St. Hippolytus, among others, consistently viewed the 24 elders as human representatives of the redeemed Church. Their proximity to the apostolic era provides unique insight into how Revelation was understood by those closest to its source, giving us a hermeneutical anchor for interpreting this highly symbolic book.
Me:
Chinaka Justin Mbaeri I am not sure that other prophetic visions quite compare to what the human interpretation requires of us with John. But your points are well-taken. Revelation is an apocalyptic literature, and it gives an author immense freedom to claim just about anything.
I very well may look into the fathers to see how they argue the points.
Thanks again.
